By the way, I did meet the guy in the end. He decided to take a gamble and give me his phone number. We met up and had a pretty good wrestle (he was good but I whupped him!)
Dont want to argue with you mate but please dont patronise. You can't even own your sarcasm. For you to tell me to relax when you were so duplicitous, lecturing and Pollyana-ish in a previous thread takes the biscuit. Like I said before, let's just give each other a very wide berth, eh?
bifighter: "I live with a gf that is not into my hobby at all and while she is awear of it, puttingit too much in her face can cause problems...that are unneccessary"
I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying she thinks you wrestle with other guys, rather than having sex with them?
"...once he trusts you he will give out safe times and or fode words where he cannot talk...it is all normal and a prart of developing the scene.."
That sounds like the exact opposite of anything I would call 'normal'!
If a married guy wants to wrestle there is obviously no reason for him not to tell his wife. I go to a wrestling class in London and I assume that the majority of the participants are heterosexual and likely many of them have girlfriends or wives. Somehow I don't think they are all there secretly. And what about famous wrestlers?
It's pretty obvious that if a guy wants to keep his "wrestling" secret from his wife. it isn't wrestling at all. He wants sex. OK, he might roll around on the floor a bit in shiny pants and *call* it wrestling - until he gets his bits out - but that's like calling a handjob 'therapeutic massage'...
I don't have sex with someone if I know he's in a closed relationship. Getting involved in his deception games with his partner would certainly not make me feel very good about myself.
Try reading my text again tallwrestle which says 'if Sturdy or anyone' feels the same way... If you disagree with me, just be honest. I will respect that more than being churlish and sarky under the guise of humour.
Reading your conversation with big interest: Decided I want to join in... Simply to share my point of view!
Its quite easy. Real sane safe guys without too much "dirt" in their closet should easily be able to give out a contact phone number. My warning bell goes off big time if its kept "secret", for any reason they come up with.
Even they might be a Greek god with 2,000 years of wrestling experience, I rather meet friendly easygoing guys that doesn´t live in several worlds at the same time. To me that's called Schizophrenia.
My impression of this issue seems to fit very well with Sturdy´s!
I think you highlight some of the continuining difficulties of being honest about our sexuality whether we identify as gay or especially as bi even in those so-called more tolerant times. There are horrendous stereotypes of bi-identified people - untrustworty, duplicitous, schizo, unreliable, promsicuous/greedy, cowardly (either really gay but cant admit it or making some fashion statement and toying with gay people). Or that there is really no such thing as bi at all, which astounds me when it comes from gay people. Part of this problem also is the awful obsession with or obedience to strict sexual fidelity rather than emotional fidelity. The bf and I have sex outside our civil partnership but we let each other know we are meeting another guy and our relationship, despite the odd niggle, is secure.
Anyway, my main point is, what if Sturdy or anyone feels that ethically he can't go along with colluding in the deceit of using code words, secret times and places to meet etc? Finding a good guy whether to wrestle or have wrestle-sex with might involve someone who is willing and able to be more upfront and fothcoming. Trust is a two way street. I divulge my details and don't like the inequality inherent in the fact that someone knows about me but is playing secret squirrel in return. This is not a criticism of you and I think I am alive to some of the difficulties around fidelity for gay and bi men. But, it is an explanation of my own choice and why some might not go for what you suggest.
Sturdy...personally I think you are over reacting...I live with a gf that is not into my hobby at all and while she is awear of it, puttingit too much in her face can cause problems...that are unneccessary///
At anyrate after you meet once and get to know each other that kind of stuff goes away...and once he trusts you he will give out safe times and or fode words where he cannot talk...it is all normal and a prart of developing the scene..so go meet him...play around some and let it go...if it is good you will have frined for life...if it is not the who cares...still worth a ry to find a good guy...
You must admit you did come across as a little judgemental in your opening post, saying the married bloke was acting like he had something to hide, hiding behind a mask, saying you felt he might not be trustworthy because he wasn't trusting, and saying he was like someone who might be ashamed of himself.... and just because he didn't want to give you his number? Poor bloke!!
For the record I'd not meet a guy without his number, so I do know where you're coming from, but he may have had his reasons, so if the phone number issue was a sticking point, them you are both better off walking away, so that neither of you have compromised your 'bottom line'
You seem to be a popular little fella on here anyway so consider it his loss and happy grappling :-)
I'm not sure what the point of this forum topic is? If you have pre match criteria (ie wanting to talk to someone on the phone) and the other person doesn't met your criteria, walk away and end of issue. You can speculate all you like but you don't know the guys reasons so it seems unfair to pass judgement on him. I'm not sure why you'd need to post the issue here, as there isn't a right or wrong way, and judgeing by your dissection of the one guy whose opinion went against YOUR way of doing things, this doesn't feel like a 'debate' or place for opinion as I'd expect the forums to be for.
I don't give out my main phone because it's also my email and often gets passed around colleagues during the day. A "can we fight soon i want to see you suffer?" text message wouldn't really be appropriate.
On the other hand, I'd rather get a "sorry, have to cancel" text message half way down the motorway than turn up and be disappointed; I also find that a five minute phone call cuts down on timewasters. So I use a separate phone.
> Something in my gut just says: NO. AVOID
It isn't unreasonable not to want to meet him. Your gut instinct doesn't need to be accountable to anyone.
We all make different calls on these things. I've learnt not to trust photos on public profiles as they are often fake (I suspect less so on this site though), which I haven't found so much with photos in private messages.
I don't think there's a universal right or wrong, we just make judgements based on our experiences.
ChicagoThongFighter: "The problem with giving out your number to a stranger online is you could end up having some psycho..."
So you meet a stranger off the internet, get on the mats with him and engage in activities that could result in serious injury... but you won't give him your phone number in case he's a psycho?
Obviously there is always going to be a risk, even if you go to a professional club, but my own personal way of sussing out someone new is to get a feel for how sensible, decent, honest, etc. he is. Wrestling can be dangerous, which means you have to be responsible. In the event of something going wrong, it also means you have to be accountable. I don't expect to see some proof of ID, but if the other guy is so desperate to keep himself 'discreet' that he won't give me his phone number, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
"I think you are way overestimating how much "trust" you had earned or were entitled of."
My point is: It works both ways.
"People need to be smart about who they trust over the internet."
Hi mate, I've lost count of how many of these I've had over the years. the stalking issue and continuous demand for some kinda sex (I know!...I do have mirrors) has lead me to delete profiles and become completely disillusioned with it all.Believe me if there was a "straight" site like this or Globalfags and Gaydire then I'd be on it. chin up mate, and don't take it all too personally. you're too nice a bloke.
It's not really a problem at all. He is being smart. With email there is no real NEED of a phone call. I have had met at least 2 dozen people for matches and been able to do it without calling anyone. It doesn't prove they are more real or anything. The problem with giving out your number to a stranger online is you could end up having some psycho who is calling you all the time, sending texts you don't want, hounding you, posting it online if they get mad at you, giving it to other people, using it to look up the rest of their personal information... and any of that leaving a trial for his wife and maybe ending his marriage.
No one is calling you that, but how the hell could he know for sure? You of course can ask, but one someone tell you they are uncomfortable with that, just use another way to meet. Demanding he does it your way IS unreasonable. Personally if I think someone is being pushy in any way, I drop them, and them calling me fake doesn't change my mind.
I think you are way overestimating how much "trust" you had earned or were entitled of. People need to be smart about who they trust over the internet.
Speaking as a married guy myself, it was best to avoid this like the plague. I have the benefit of my wife knowing about my interests, but even if she did not know I would be able to give out MY contact information, whether it be mobile phone or whatever to set up a match. These days and age who wants to meet up with a no pic, no number stranger. If he is that uptight he would have probably backed out at the last minute anyway. For some, it is just a fantasy.
Yes that's another thing! He contacted me originally about six months ago but we didn't get to the stage of making any arrangements. When he got back in touch he was in my Favourites list but, like I said to him - "Sorry, I know we've spoken before, but I don't remember anything about you. Without a picture you're just another faceless profile."
So many guys set up profiles with no picture at all and then wonder why they go unnoticed. Even if the guy put up a picture of Daffy Duck at least that would make him stand out from the background of faceless thousands, and I would remember him.
It's quite funny, really. Maybe he thinks if he uploads a photo of his chest, the wife will log on and recognise his nipples...
What the guy told is something I call a "red flag". We live in a world where you can buy a phone and a prepaid card to be used for your, khm, temporary contacts, for 4 euros and 12 cents. There is simply no reason not to get one! I think you are right to ditch this guy. There are enough people to wrestle without wasting your time and effort on someone who is obviously not on the level.
On a related note, I find the "I have photos but I won't even post a faceless pic because OMG teh internet monster will get me, yet I am completely willing to send it in private" to be a lame excuse as well. Either someone is too paranoid, or they are sending someone else's pictures and don't want to be outed.
A guy off another site has contacted me interested in wrestling. No pictures on his profile, but he sent me a few, including one of his face. He likes various different types of "wrestling", including actual wrestling but also including erotic rolling around. I made it clear that I was ONLY interested in wrestling and he was fine with that.
When it got to the stage of arranging a session, we hit a snag. I gave him my phone number and he would not give me his. Why not? Because, he eventually admitted, he's married. What does that have to do with anything, considering that I do NOT want to have sex with him?
He says he's paranoid, and wants me to overlook it.
No. Something in my gut just says: NO. AVOID.
Wrestling is a potentially dangerous sport. To get on the mat you have to be a man who will take responsibility for himself and his actions. Not someone with something to hide. Not someone hiding behind a mask.
He trusts me enough to wrestle me but not enough to give me his phone number. That makes me feel: If you're not a trusting person, you're not a trustWORTHY person.
Maybe it's a petty little thing, but to me the basic trust has to work both ways. I just don't feel comfortable or safe with someone who is acting as if he is ashamed of himself.
Sturdy (31)
30/10/2010 01:56He gave me what I asked for; a gesture that put us on an equal footing.
MancsMonkey (0)
29/10/2010 15:15Interested to know what made you take the risk, as you seemed to be veering very much against it?
tallwrestle (18)
28/10/2010 23:22Well that's a happy ending and a nice note to end the topic on, and glad you had a good grapple with the bloke Sturdy :-)
Sturdy (31)
28/10/2010 21:37Play nice, you two!
By the way, I did meet the guy in the end. He decided to take a gamble and give me his phone number. We met up and had a pretty good wrestle (he was good but I whupped him!)
MancsMonkey (0)
28/10/2010 21:21Dont want to argue with you mate but please dont patronise. You can't even own your sarcasm. For you to tell me to relax when you were so duplicitous, lecturing and Pollyana-ish in a previous thread takes the biscuit. Like I said before, let's just give each other a very wide berth, eh?
tallwrestle (18)
28/10/2010 20:42Read into my comment what you like, it is in humour. Relax!
Sturdy (31)
28/10/2010 20:40bifighter: "I live with a gf that is not into my hobby at all and while she is awear of it, puttingit too much in her face can cause problems...that are unneccessary"
I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying she thinks you wrestle with other guys, rather than having sex with them?
"...once he trusts you he will give out safe times and or fode words where he cannot talk...it is all normal and a prart of developing the scene.."
That sounds like the exact opposite of anything I would call 'normal'!
If a married guy wants to wrestle there is obviously no reason for him not to tell his wife. I go to a wrestling class in London and I assume that the majority of the participants are heterosexual and likely many of them have girlfriends or wives. Somehow I don't think they are all there secretly. And what about famous wrestlers?
It's pretty obvious that if a guy wants to keep his "wrestling" secret from his wife. it isn't wrestling at all. He wants sex. OK, he might roll around on the floor a bit in shiny pants and *call* it wrestling - until he gets his bits out - but that's like calling a handjob 'therapeutic massage'...
I don't have sex with someone if I know he's in a closed relationship. Getting involved in his deception games with his partner would certainly not make me feel very good about myself.
MancsMonkey (0)
28/10/2010 19:44Try reading my text again tallwrestle which says 'if Sturdy or anyone' feels the same way... If you disagree with me, just be honest. I will respect that more than being churlish and sarky under the guise of humour.
boine (115 )
28/10/2010 17:26Hey guys!
Reading your conversation with big interest: Decided I want to join in... Simply to share my point of view!
Its quite easy. Real sane safe guys without too much "dirt" in their closet should easily be able to give out a contact phone number. My warning bell goes off big time if its kept "secret", for any reason they come up with.
Even they might be a Greek god with 2,000 years of wrestling experience, I rather meet friendly easygoing guys that doesn´t live in several worlds at the same time. To me that's called Schizophrenia.
My impression of this issue seems to fit very well with Sturdy´s!
Just my own personal opinion amongst others...
/ Peter
tallwrestle (18)
28/10/2010 16:41Perhaps Sturdy may wish to speak for himself? ;-))) lol
MancsMonkey (0)
28/10/2010 11:34Hi Bifighter
I think you highlight some of the continuining difficulties of being honest about our sexuality whether we identify as gay or especially as bi even in those so-called more tolerant times. There are horrendous stereotypes of bi-identified people - untrustworty, duplicitous, schizo, unreliable, promsicuous/greedy, cowardly (either really gay but cant admit it or making some fashion statement and toying with gay people). Or that there is really no such thing as bi at all, which astounds me when it comes from gay people. Part of this problem also is the awful obsession with or obedience to strict sexual fidelity rather than emotional fidelity. The bf and I have sex outside our civil partnership but we let each other know we are meeting another guy and our relationship, despite the odd niggle, is secure.
Anyway, my main point is, what if Sturdy or anyone feels that ethically he can't go along with colluding in the deceit of using code words, secret times and places to meet etc? Finding a good guy whether to wrestle or have wrestle-sex with might involve someone who is willing and able to be more upfront and fothcoming. Trust is a two way street. I divulge my details and don't like the inequality inherent in the fact that someone knows about me but is playing secret squirrel in return. This is not a criticism of you and I think I am alive to some of the difficulties around fidelity for gay and bi men. But, it is an explanation of my own choice and why some might not go for what you suggest.
Best
MM
bifighter (0)
28/10/2010 06:25Sturdy...personally I think you are over reacting...I live with a gf that is not into my hobby at all and while she is awear of it, puttingit too much in her face can cause problems...that are unneccessary///
At anyrate after you meet once and get to know each other that kind of stuff goes away...and once he trusts you he will give out safe times and or fode words where he cannot talk...it is all normal and a prart of developing the scene..so go meet him...play around some and let it go...if it is good you will have frined for life...if it is not the who cares...still worth a ry to find a good guy...
MancsMonkey (0)
04/10/2010 01:25'Lycra.' What d'yer think I am: one of Pan's People? Never worn it in me life mate! I'm not THAT camp!
Sturdy (31)
04/10/2010 00:56MancsMonkey, my knight in shining lycra!
tallwrestle (18)
04/10/2010 00:32LOL...thanks for your interesting contribution
MancsMonkey (0)
04/10/2010 00:19He's a popular big fella mate! Dont miniaturise me mate Sturdy if yer know what's gud 4 ya!
tallwrestle (18)
04/10/2010 00:08Hey Mr Sturdy,
You must admit you did come across as a little judgemental in your opening post, saying the married bloke was acting like he had something to hide, hiding behind a mask, saying you felt he might not be trustworthy because he wasn't trusting, and saying he was like someone who might be ashamed of himself.... and just because he didn't want to give you his number? Poor bloke!!
For the record I'd not meet a guy without his number, so I do know where you're coming from, but he may have had his reasons, so if the phone number issue was a sticking point, them you are both better off walking away, so that neither of you have compromised your 'bottom line'
You seem to be a popular little fella on here anyway so consider it his loss and happy grappling :-)
Sturdy (31)
03/10/2010 23:02I haven't judged anyone. I just thought it was an interesting dilemma and wondered what other people thought.
Differences of opinion are interesting, are they not?
tallwrestle (18)
03/10/2010 22:30I'm not sure what the point of this forum topic is? If you have pre match criteria (ie wanting to talk to someone on the phone) and the other person doesn't met your criteria, walk away and end of issue. You can speculate all you like but you don't know the guys reasons so it seems unfair to pass judgement on him. I'm not sure why you'd need to post the issue here, as there isn't a right or wrong way, and judgeing by your dissection of the one guy whose opinion went against YOUR way of doing things, this doesn't feel like a 'debate' or place for opinion as I'd expect the forums to be for.
ianw (0)
03/10/2010 14:45I don't give out my main phone because it's also my email and often gets passed around colleagues during the day. A "can we fight soon i want to see you suffer?" text message wouldn't really be appropriate.
On the other hand, I'd rather get a "sorry, have to cancel" text message half way down the motorway than turn up and be disappointed; I also find that a five minute phone call cuts down on timewasters. So I use a separate phone.
> Something in my gut just says: NO. AVOID
It isn't unreasonable not to want to meet him. Your gut instinct doesn't need to be accountable to anyone.
We all make different calls on these things. I've learnt not to trust photos on public profiles as they are often fake (I suspect less so on this site though), which I haven't found so much with photos in private messages.
I don't think there's a universal right or wrong, we just make judgements based on our experiences.
Sturdy (31)
03/10/2010 12:55ChicagoThongFighter: "The problem with giving out your number to a stranger online is you could end up having some psycho..."
So you meet a stranger off the internet, get on the mats with him and engage in activities that could result in serious injury... but you won't give him your phone number in case he's a psycho?
Obviously there is always going to be a risk, even if you go to a professional club, but my own personal way of sussing out someone new is to get a feel for how sensible, decent, honest, etc. he is. Wrestling can be dangerous, which means you have to be responsible. In the event of something going wrong, it also means you have to be accountable. I don't expect to see some proof of ID, but if the other guy is so desperate to keep himself 'discreet' that he won't give me his phone number, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
"I think you are way overestimating how much "trust" you had earned or were entitled of."
My point is: It works both ways.
"People need to be smart about who they trust over the internet."
Exactly my point!
grievous angel (0)
02/10/2010 13:44Hi mate, I've lost count of how many of these I've had over the years. the stalking issue and continuous demand for some kinda sex (I know!...I do have mirrors) has lead me to delete profiles and become completely disillusioned with it all.Believe me if there was a "straight" site like this or Globalfags and Gaydire then I'd be on it. chin up mate, and don't take it all too personally. you're too nice a bloke.
MancsMonkey (0)
02/10/2010 12:38I think you just gotta go with yer instincts Sturdy mate. I always think, if in doubt, dont!
ChiFight (6)
02/10/2010 05:40It's not really a problem at all. He is being smart. With email there is no real NEED of a phone call. I have had met at least 2 dozen people for matches and been able to do it without calling anyone. It doesn't prove they are more real or anything. The problem with giving out your number to a stranger online is you could end up having some psycho who is calling you all the time, sending texts you don't want, hounding you, posting it online if they get mad at you, giving it to other people, using it to look up the rest of their personal information... and any of that leaving a trial for his wife and maybe ending his marriage.
No one is calling you that, but how the hell could he know for sure? You of course can ask, but one someone tell you they are uncomfortable with that, just use another way to meet. Demanding he does it your way IS unreasonable. Personally if I think someone is being pushy in any way, I drop them, and them calling me fake doesn't change my mind.
I think you are way overestimating how much "trust" you had earned or were entitled of. People need to be smart about who they trust over the internet.
Katfitefan (4)
01/10/2010 19:58Speaking as a married guy myself, it was best to avoid this like the plague. I have the benefit of my wife knowing about my interests, but even if she did not know I would be able to give out MY contact information, whether it be mobile phone or whatever to set up a match. These days and age who wants to meet up with a no pic, no number stranger. If he is that uptight he would have probably backed out at the last minute anyway. For some, it is just a fantasy.
Sturdy (31)
01/10/2010 14:06Yes that's another thing! He contacted me originally about six months ago but we didn't get to the stage of making any arrangements. When he got back in touch he was in my Favourites list but, like I said to him - "Sorry, I know we've spoken before, but I don't remember anything about you. Without a picture you're just another faceless profile."
So many guys set up profiles with no picture at all and then wonder why they go unnoticed. Even if the guy put up a picture of Daffy Duck at least that would make him stand out from the background of faceless thousands, and I would remember him.
It's quite funny, really. Maybe he thinks if he uploads a photo of his chest, the wife will log on and recognise his nipples...
SileX (207 )
01/10/2010 11:40What the guy told is something I call a "red flag". We live in a world where you can buy a phone and a prepaid card to be used for your, khm, temporary contacts, for 4 euros and 12 cents. There is simply no reason not to get one! I think you are right to ditch this guy. There are enough people to wrestle without wasting your time and effort on someone who is obviously not on the level.
On a related note, I find the "I have photos but I won't even post a faceless pic because OMG teh internet monster will get me, yet I am completely willing to send it in private" to be a lame excuse as well. Either someone is too paranoid, or they are sending someone else's pictures and don't want to be outed.
Sturdy (31)
01/10/2010 00:54A guy off another site has contacted me interested in wrestling. No pictures on his profile, but he sent me a few, including one of his face. He likes various different types of "wrestling", including actual wrestling but also including erotic rolling around. I made it clear that I was ONLY interested in wrestling and he was fine with that.
When it got to the stage of arranging a session, we hit a snag. I gave him my phone number and he would not give me his. Why not? Because, he eventually admitted, he's married. What does that have to do with anything, considering that I do NOT want to have sex with him?
He says he's paranoid, and wants me to overlook it.
No. Something in my gut just says: NO. AVOID.
Wrestling is a potentially dangerous sport. To get on the mat you have to be a man who will take responsibility for himself and his actions. Not someone with something to hide. Not someone hiding behind a mask.
He trusts me enough to wrestle me but not enough to give me his phone number. That makes me feel: If you're not a trusting person, you're not a trustWORTHY person.
Maybe it's a petty little thing, but to me the basic trust has to work both ways. I just don't feel comfortable or safe with someone who is acting as if he is ashamed of himself.